Buyer Support
Seller Support
If you’re considering a creator program for your game or app, you may be wondering if the creators in your program will drive net new revenue or simply collect commissions by drafting off your game or brand. Are creator programs just a back door for getting scammed, or a path to higher revenue?
In this episode, we interview Nexus.gg CEO Justin Sacks about his thoughts on the core value that creator programs are meant to drive, common concerns when launching a program, key considerations with attribution models, and how to go about structuring your program to be a reliable source of net new revenue for your game or app.
If you’re looking for new ways to increase revenue and profit and are wondering if a creator program is the right choice for you, don’t miss this episode of Growth Stage. Watch or listen now!
Podcast Full Interview: Audio
Listen online or find it on more podcast services.
Podcast Full Interview: Video
Transcript
David (00:04)
Hello everyone and welcome to Growth Stage, where we discuss how digital technology companies can increase the value of their business. I’m your host, David Vogelpohl and I love to support the digital technology community as part of my role here at FastSpring, and I love to bring the best of the community to you here on Growth Stage. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about creator program attribution. Do creators
actually drive value for game studios and publishers. And joining us for this conversation is someone who knows quite a bit about that. I’d like to welcome back to Growth Stage, Justin Sacks of Nexus. Justin, welcome back.
Justin (00:45)
Thank you. Excited to be here.
David (00:47)
So glad to have you here and to see you outside the context of like a conference. I mean it’s neat to be here and virtually, I suppose not as cool as it’s something like a gamescom or a GDC, but it’s good to have you here.
So for those watching and listening in this episode, what we’re going to talk to Justin about are his thoughts on the core value that creator programs are meant to drive, common concerns people have when launching a creator program, key considerations with attribution models, I think that’s going to be a big part of our conversation here today, and how to go about structuring your program to be a reliable source of net new revenue.
for your game or maybe even your app. So really looking forward to this conversation today, Justin. Before we kick it off though, I’d like to ask you one of my get to know you questions. And you’ve been on the podcast before, so I won’t ask you my typical one. I’m going to ask you a slightly different one. You and I have nerded out quite a bit about our favorite games in the past. So I’m just curious, what is your favorite Nintendo 64 N64 game from back in the day?
Justin (01:59)
Yeah, I think the classics are right up there. Like I I love Smash Bros. and Star Fox, but my favorite would be Conker’s Bad Fur Day, specifically for the multiplayer. They are famous for their single player. It’s a kind of wild game to experience as a ten year old or an early teen. But the multiplayer I think is truly exceptional and needs to be lauded more than it more than it has been.
David (02:22)
I’m gonna have to crack out an N sixty four emulator and play that one. I never played that one. I played Waveracer and like ten trillion hours of Star Fox. Those those are mine too.
Justin (02:32)
Yeah. Conker’s Bad Fur Day is great.
David (02:34)
Okay, I’m gonna have to check that out a little bit. Although I will say my my emulator game time is is not very high these days. So but maybe I’ll I’ll find the time to do that one. and earlier in the intro I mentioned you’re CEO of Nexus.gg. Could you tell us a little bit about Nexus and your role there?
Justin (02:52)
so Nexus.gg we’re a creator program platform. So we work with anyone, particularly game publishers, that are looking to build and manage a creator program to help their service. And this could be keeping creators excited, communicating with creators at scale, sending keys to them, or really our core feature, which is revenue share. How do you handle sharing revenue for a game with a bunch of different SKUs and a a
a bunch of different types of monetization, especially if you have creators that are all over the world in different countries and you need to handle payouts and taxes and all those things. So Nexus handles that and my role there is CEO and
David (03:32)
Excellent. Well that was a good summary. And it sounds like you’ve got a decent amount of experience to cover this topic here today. I’ve spent a lot of my career managing partner marketing campaigns and programs and leading teams that have done that. And I feel like the thing that kind of transcends all industries is the opportunity people see in partner programs and partner networks, but this apprehension that maybe they’re not going to get the
True value they’re looking for. Maybe they’re going to double dip on revenue they were already going to get. And so I feel like a lot of organizations are almost paralyzed in a sense. Like they see the opportunity, but they don’t really know how to go about it in a way that’s like a net contributor to their business. And I feel a lot of that stress and pressure as people consider creator programs on the publisher side. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation here today.
And also from FastSpring’s perspective, thinking about that overlap from the web store side of things and the role that creators play there. But before we get into the particulars of all that, I’m just curious from your perspective at the high level, what is the core value that you feel creator programs are meant to drive? What is their purpose?
Justin (04:51)
At the end of the day, it’s incremental revenue. It’s getting your players to more deeply engage with the game so that they end up spending more, either by sticking around longer, buying more things, or buying more expensive SKUs. like if you think about the Venn diagram of players that will watch content creators and players that are your, you know, best cohort that are the highest spenders and the most engaged players, it’s almost a circle. Like a lot of the people that are going to watch content creators.
are going to be your most engaged players. And so a creator program is is getting more of those players or keeping them around.
David (05:26)
You mentioned that the core purpose was incremental revenue, but you also kind of touched on some of those leading indicator signals, like engaged players, I’m guessing average playtime, that kind of thing. What are some of those leading indicators that you think creative programs also help to drive kind of in advance of that revenue KPI?
Justin (05:47)
It’s anything from general increase in free to paid conversion. So, you know, many games players can play for free or they can then they can become a spender. And players that support content creators and watch content creators end up being much more likely to be spenders than the average player. Things that you talked about, like engagement, so players will play more sessions but also retain longer. So stick around in the game, you know, through future updates and more patches.
A bunch of those sort of things. I think there’s also reactivation is one of the the core metrics that we work with publishers a lot is how do you actually get some of those previously deeply engaged players who have lapsed out of the game to come back? And one of the best ways is content creators because they get to talk about all of the new content in the game, all the new stuff, and say, hey, if you wanted to come back to the game, if you haven’t played in six months or a year, this new patch is really great for you. And if you’re gonna buy something, use my creator code. And that sort of messaging works really well for reactivation as well.
David (06:44)
Feel like a lot of marketing managers view creator programs as a way to win the attention of creators to start talking about your game. Is that a primary role or a secondary role of a creator program? Do you feel like attracting new creators to promote your game?
Justin (07:01)
Generally secondary. creator programs are really great at keeping the content creator, but they’re not necessarily the best tool for getting them to start playing. It’s helpful, but the program is more powerful for you know some of the other things that we mentioned. But on the creator side, it’s certainly the best possible tool a game publisher has for creator retention.
David (07:22)
So if I’ve gone through all the hard work and effort to get the attention of a creator somehow and they start playing your game and creating content around it, it sounds like the creator program can be a core pillar of keeping them activated, keeping them, you know, profiting from that relationship and continuing to play and promote the game.
Justin (07:41)
Yeah, I one of the metrics I I most recommend, especially live service game publishers to think about, is the number of individual unique content creators that make a living by playing your game. And the higher that number is, the much better you’re gonna see all of the metrics most live service games care about around, you know, engaged players and retention and spend and all sorts of things. And the best way to keep that number high is to offer revenue share.
To have a way that the creator can make a living by playing your game. Because if the only possibilities for revenue are ads on YouTube or direct donations and support from their fans, it’s going to be really hard for them to focus just on your game rather than trying a bunch of other ones out.
David (08:24)
Yeah, so that’s a really good point. Like if I’m gonna do a paid placement or a paid promotion with a creator, it’s kind of one and done. It’s like a checkbox thing, right? Versus Rev share where the creator would be more incentivized to think of new ideas and iterate over time. Is that kind of what you’re getting at there with like paid YouTube ads?
Justin (08:45)
Exactly. Yeah. And I and I think also, I often recommend publishers to be careful when they do, you know, traditional paid influencer spend where you would say, Hey, make this video, I’ll give you a thousand dollars. because then you almost disincentivize that content creator from ever playing your game again unless you come back to them and you say, Okay, here’s another thousand dollars for the next video. But if it’s more revenue share and attribution based, then it’s more of an organic partnership.
Where if the creator is succeeding then so is the game and if the game is succeeding then so is the
David (09:17)
Yeah, it makes sense. Like your businesses are more intertwined. now I’m kind of curious, like you mentioned live service games a minute ago, and I’m not sure if this would fall under the category of of games that are quote best suited for creator programs, but what are the best kind of games for a creator program?
Justin (09:36)
I I generally think of it on two axis one is the depth of the game, which is anything from how strategic is it for players, is there multiplayer, is there PvP, basically games that someone out there will want to make a tier list for, or frankly, that will just have educational content on. The more strategic the game, the better of a fit it is for a creator program. And then the second axis is monetization. So the more methods of monetization.
Which could mean it has an in-game currency, but it also has a battle pass and actually another currency that you can directly purchase or you can get through time. And there’s gotcha mechanic. The more of those different methods of monetization, the better fit it’s gonna be for a creator program for two reasons. One, because creators can make content talking about what’s the right strategy around spending in the game, which does really well. but also the more of of monetization
channels there are in a given game leads there to be more likely that there is VIP or very, very highly engaged players. And creators are the best way of turning a player into those VIPs and certainly for keeping them.
David (10:49)
Okay, so if there’s not much to talk about in the game and I’m gonna pick on a game, somebody’s gonna throw a rock at me from the stands or something, but like Tetris or something. And there’s you know, maybe there’s strategy. I guess there’s a lot of creators around Tetris though, but maybe it doesn’t have the monetization side, at least the core version of Tetris, if you will. So those two dimensions it sounds like are the the the key parts that you look for in terms of like a good fit for a creator program.
Justin (11:16)
Yeah, an an anti fit might be like a you know a very deeply casual match three puzzle game that is advertising only, you know, that doesn’t have anything to purchase. That’s not gonna do super well with a creator program. But the reverse of that, like a deeply strategic four X game with PvP and five different ways of buying currencies will do exceptional.
David (11:39)
Thinking of a few games right now that fit that that mold, if you will. So that’s good insights there. so when marketing managers or marketing leaders are thinking about launching a creator program, what are their typical concerns? Like what are they worried about when they first start to explore this?
Justin (11:59)
There’s usually two things. One is technical. So how much work will it actually take to integrate your creator program into the game because it’s not zero? and then the second thing is the the the fear of cannibalization. if a player buys something using a creator code and you’re sharing some revenue back with that creator, well, what if that player would have bought that thing anyways and now you’re just losing out on some percent of of your potential margin? The first one on the technical on the technical side is largely solved.
Most creator program integrations take anywhere from thirty minutes to a few hours to do, and it’s gonna be one single engineer, so it’s a pretty lightweight process. Right can’t sorry?
David (12:39)
Wa pardon pardon for interrupting, but why is that such a low bar on the technical integration side?
Justin (12:46)
So at least the way that Nexus does a creative program, what we recommend other folks to do is the only information that your creator program partner needs is post transaction information, which is effectively like when someone buys something and they used a creator code, you know, we or any creator program partner will need to know, okay, well, what was purchased, how much was spent, what currency was used, and then which creator code did the player’s account were was it attached to? And all of that information
Is sent after a transaction happens so it doesn’t interrupt the actual process. We, for example, don’t need to speak with Apple or Steam or any of the actual payment platforms. And getting that information through an API integration is really simple and straightforward. The only other work that the publisher needs to do is actually build that field in-game where the player types in which creator they want to support. And usually we recommend that a player only has to type that creator’s code in once and then it’s attached to their account.
David (13:48)
So if I think of other partner platforms, what I’m not hearing here is there’s no like tracking links or cookies, like other types of partner platforms. there’s no microsites necessarily for the creator, although I know Nexus does some of that as well. but like these aren’t necessarily requirements. It sounded like what the core requirement was was a creator code field.
on the purchase experience and for your creator program to be able to associate transactions with the creator code the player used. Does that sound like a good summary?
Justin (14:23)
That’s exactly right. Yeah, the way we recommend creator programs is that they’re hundred percent attribution based. And so the creator only gets revenue when they literally have driven a sale. So even more than it’s getting a new player to join the game or reach level ten. It’s no, that’s when the player actually bought something and used a creator code to make that purchase.
David (14:44)
Okay, so pay per for performance, if you will, and in this case performance meaning a purchase. And so the next one you mentioned though was like that fear of cannibalization, and I’m sure this is where maybe like the kind of fear of maybe using that code if they were gonna buy it anyways comes in. But help me understand the fear of cannibalization side.
Justin (15:06)
Yeah, so most publishers are are worried that players will end up supporting a creator because they like them, but they’re gonna make the same purchases they would have done otherwise. They’re not gonna buy more often and they’re not gonna spend more on any individual purchase. We don’t ever see that. all of our data with every one of our partners shows that the creators drive meaningful incremental revenue and they drive, you know, a strong increase in positive player behavior.
Which is why we’re really happy to do trials and tests with our partners so that they can look at the data for themselves. But yeah, we see very often that anywhere from fifteen upwards of forty-five to fifty percent of players that use a creator code had never spent at all before. So the creator got that player to make their very first purchase. and then we see on the average, when a player uses a creator code,
their spend increases by up to about thirty three percent more than what they were spending prior to using creator goods.
David (16:03)
So in addition to driving net new purchases, like the creator is like, the new battle pass is awesome. It includes X, Y, and Z. Go buy it and use my creator code. You’re also saying that it increases the average order value for players. He’s at thirty three percent, I think.
Justin (16:19)
Yeah, and that’s true kind of across the board, but then if you kind of stratify it from in-game to web shop, it gets even more extreme where creators are, in my opinion, and I’m very biased of course, like the best single tool you you you can have for driving increased AOV for for a web store. we’ve seen like one example of a game where we were both integrated in-game and on their web store.
The AOV for a player using a creator code in-game was about $65, and then on their web store was $180. And we’ve seen that kind of across the board, that creators are the best way of not just getting players to move spend from in-game to web store, but really increase spend as well.
David (17:03)
So if I’m three Xing the profits I get off a purchase by sending my player to the web store and increasing my average order value, that sounds like a one two punch in terms of the value of a creator program.
Justin (17:17)
Yeah, it is is wild to me that every game that has a web store doesn’t have a creator program. It’s like the easiest win to meaningfully improve your metrics.
David (17:27)
And I guess the other cool part of creator programs when it comes to web stores is this is marketing essentially that’s being done a hundred percent outside the game. So it’s not bound by steering fees or app store rules relative to Rev share, anything like that. it to me that’s one of the more powerful parts. Do you do you feel like for games that have creator programs, that’s a common strategy that folks are thinking through?
Or is it still early days with that part?
Justin (17:58)
It’s still a little early, but it’s absolutely true. Like if you think about it, games can always they can market to their players in game for all sorts of stuff, for all the new events that they’re doing, the new sales, all the the new items that people can can buy, whatever it might be. But but they have more challenges of telling folks, hey, go buy it on the web store. And so for example, we again with another program that was both in game and on the web store, about twenty percent of all transactions included a creator code. So creators were driven.
Driving 20% for in-game, all the in-game purchases. But on the web store, it was 63 and a half percent of all of the purchases. So more than half of every time a player bought something, they use a creator code on their web store. And so creators can do a really great job of telling players directly, like, hey, you should probably go buy it on the web store. It’s a better price. You can support me over there. Like there is a real opportunity for the player, and the creator can communicate that pretty clearly.
David (18:52)
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the conversation around creator marketing is around UA or player acquisition, not necessarily average order value and definitely not profit optimization or driving players to the web store. And I feel like with web stores, that’s also just like a general trend is people aren’t marketers aren’t necessarily wrapping their heads around the fact that, hey, look, in my retargeting, in my social media promotions, in my Discord community.
I can be doing promotions that not only increase the average order value, but also the average profit of what I’m doing. And I do view that creators are like a key linchpin in those two strategies. what are your thoughts there?
Justin (19:36)
Yeah, I think so as well. I think generally marketers just have been focused on UA for so long. And, you know, you need to have players in your game, you know, for there to be any value. But a lot of games out there, especially live service games, they work so hard to get these VIPs really trying it and playing it. And they don’t leverage some of the absolute best tools there are for keeping those players or growing those players. And that’s where creators are particularly powerful.
David (20:03)
Yeah, that next step to make the players you acquire even more valuable, which can give you more budget to go acquire even more players. So it’s kind of this self-feeding thing in that way, and a strategy that would benefit a lot of games if they could increase the value of each player. So I want to kind of get back to the ideas around creator program attribution. You know, in the creator universe, there is that grand controversy around honey and
These like coupon sites that sit at the checkout and and kind of take credit for sales, they didn’t really drive. And I think in a game context, you know, a lot of people, like you mentioned earlier, like was the player gonna buy that anyways? And they just really like that creator, so they put their code in there. so what are some of the considerations when thinking about modeling that attribution? Like, do you give people different
levels of Rev share? Do you think really carefully about who you let into your program? Do you monitor it? Like what are the considerations to make sure the attribution you’re giving is fair attribution for the revenue and value that that creator’s driving?
Justin (21:17)
Yeah, there are a whole lot of tests that I’ll get into in a moment. But the core, like fundamental belief that I that I try to communicate to publishers is that when a player knows that their purchase supported a content creator that they like, that is the magic. They become a better player because of that. And so the specific user experience is when they’re buying on a web store or in game and they use a creator code, that transaction, the successful transaction modal that pops up, it needs to say, hey, your purchase supported this content creator.
That’s what gets them to continue spending to continue playing. but as for specific ways that you can measure and test, there’s all sorts of things. So there’s the fundamental one of look at your cohort and player spend before you introduce the creator program and then measure it after. So for example, we launched with a game, let’s call it like patch 27 or version 27 of the game. And we looked at, okay, what was
The players that would end up using creator codes, what was their spend in patch 26? And let’s say it was like $280. And then what was their spend in patch 27? So those players that did end up using a creator code. And did it go up or down? And in our case, it went up. So it went from 270-ish up to like 370. But then we also compared that against players that didn’t use creator codes. And what was their spend in the earlier patch versus after? Because if their spend also went up, you know, 62%.
Well then the creators didn’t make a big impact. But what we found is actually players that didn’t use a creator code, their ARPU actually went down in the falling patch about 25%. And so the delta was really significant. and there’s other things that you can do, like measuring, very specifically of the players that end up using a creator code to make a purchase, what was their behavior before? If they had never bought anything, then clearly that’s incremental revenue because the creator got that player to make their first purchase. If it’s reactivation, if the player hadn’t spent in 30 or 60 days.
And the first time they spent after that that period used a creator code, but the creator probably got them to come back. And there’s all sorts of things like that.
David (23:18)
Okay, so that makes sense. You know, it’s funny you mentioned that time series analysis. I always joke with time series and I like whip out a Ouija board and I’m like, what caused the change in the revenue? But I like how you countered that with like, yeah, look at it for the people that use the creator code, see if they spent more than in the past, but then compare that to a control group of players that didn’t use the creator codes. And I think that’s a very sound way to think about that attribution in terms of increased spend
I also like the idea of thinking about like was this their first purchase? Was this their first purchase in a while? my kids watch a lot of creators and I’ve seen them like come back into games and back into spending in games based specifically on creators. And so I’m kind of imagining that dead zone in their data where like it’s been a year since they’ve really touched or paid for anything in the game, and then all of a sudden they’re they’re spending again and seeing that creator code as the signal
That that is that attribution, that attribution should be attributed there. what are some things people should be thinking about in terms of like preventing attribution abuse? Like, do you ever recommend like cycling creator codes or any other types of strategies if you feel like maybe the code is being used in a disingenuous way or a way that isn’t as attributable to attribution?
Justin (24:43)
So there’s a lot of tools that we offer around this. And it’s usually before we launch with a publisher, and it’s to, you know, ease any of the concerns that they have around cannibalization. So there’s there’s constraints that you can put on the program. Anything from you can cap what is the total amount of payment any in any specific creator can get, you know, based on the sales that they drive. You can have what we call a sliding scale. So if you have a very VIP heavy game where
Very small minority of players are a meaningful amount of your total revenue. You can do something where an individual player’s spend contributes less to revenue share the more that they spend. So their first hundred dollars might be the total amount. And then after that, it’s 70% of the total amount. And then at $1,000, 50%, et cetera, et cetera. But the biggest thing, frankly, is we’re happy to put all those things in place because once you actually see the data for yourself, and it’s important that any of these partners actually has telemetry.
To be able to see the data for themselves. But if they do look at it and they look at some of those differences and really try to dive into the, difference between a player that used a creator code versus players that didn’t, or players that did end up using creator codes versus that specific cohort, their behavior before the program was in place, usually they’ll be able to see that it had that incremental impact, that that magic moment of a player knowing they’re supporting their favorite creator got them to become a better, you know, more positive player.
And then the games instead sh flip their thinking to, okay, wait, how do we get all of our players to be supporting creators? How do we get as many people as possible? Because if it’s incremental, well then you don’t want just fifteen or twenty percent of your players using your creator code. You want all of it.
David (26:21)
Right. And that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so it seems like there’s a few tactics there to help prevent if you felt that the attribution wasn’t pure, I guess. And I like the idea of the sliding scale, although typically I feel in partner programs you you have the opposite where like the commissions get bigger the more an individual person spends. But in this case there’s a behavior being established there and the creator’s role in the future might wane.
versus what it might be in the beginning. and I I I get these levers and I understand people are concerned there. I feel sometimes though people like turn these things too tight because they’re just so worried about the attribution that they’re kind of passing over dollars to pick up pennies, if you will. do you feel people get a little a little too tight on those attribution dials?
Justin (27:14)
Yeah, there’s something that it’s always challenging for me to understand where often the team that is in charge of these creative programs is the marketing team. And they won’t blink an eye to spend $200,000 in budget on something that will clearly be attributed to fifty thousand dollars back in ROI, so it’s a negative ROI. But then when you think of something that’s purely performance-based.
And it’s driving incremental revenue. They worry about a much smaller spend, like, we’re spending fifty thousand dollars on these creators. But what if you know they would have bought anyways? Okay. Well then let’s say they would have spent fifty thousand dollars and you were sharing ten percent. Well then you know your market spend was five thousand dollars and you got all this you know content from the creators, and that’s the worst case scenario. And so I I’m on the same place. Of course, I’m biased that like people should feel more comfortable, more experimental, especially in a model like this that’s
purely performance based where the creators only get paid if they’re driving sales. So like if they bring like often when you’re doing a UA campaign, you’re paying for the player, even if the player sucks, if they don’t end up spending or they they leave after, you know, 15 days. But in this case, you’re only spending any money if the player actually becomes a spender and is is actually purchasing stuff.
David (28:30)
Yeah, it’s so funny how partner and creator programs get this h heightened level of concern. Like, are we gonna pay for something we would have gotten anyways? But all other mediums of advertising that hardly ever comes up. Like I’ll place an ad on Insta or TikTok or something, and very rarely do you hear a lot of people like, Well, we have gotten that player anyways, we have gotten that sale anyways. And the reality is with multi-touch attribution.
Like you’re touching them a million different ways. And it actually could have been a creator that got them to play. And you just happened to show them that insta ad or something. And they were like, okay, fine, I’ll finally play that game. but the reality was maybe they had been watching a creator for a while and the ad just reminded them that, yeah, I’ve been checking this out. Maybe today’s the day I’m gonna go play this game. but it’s so funny how people’s spidey senses, if you if you will.
are like super heightened when it comes to things like creator and partner programs. but I’m with you. It’s like if I’m only paying for performance and I’m keeping a tight eye on things, like I’m not just letting it go wild, why wouldn’t this be the best avenue for my advertising dollars? it’s such an interesting dynamic I feel in these types of programs. so
Help me understand and I know you don’t we don’t have time for you like to go into like the full playbook of of Nexus or anything, but what are some high level best practices for people to keep in mind when they’re launching a creator program for the first time?
Justin (30:05)
one thing to think about is you want to make it as easy as possible for the creator to share the message about your game and be excited about it. And whether that’s talking about the new content or new battle pass or whatever it might be, the best way to to help the creator do that is to give them something that is exciting for their audience. Meaning it’s a little more uncomfortable if the creator says, Hey, check this thing out. If you buy it, it supports me.
But if their message shifts very slightly, hey, check this out. If you buy it, you get something. Whether that’s you get additional value, you get a discount, you get exclusive content, that’s really, really valuable for the creator and i is a big driver in getting the creator to do a great job making a ton of content. Because no longer do they feel selfish, now they’re like, hey, audience, I’m sharing something special with you. If you use a creator code, you get a cool title in game. Like obviously that’s still valuable for the creator.
But now they’re so much more comfortable sharing that message. So thinking about what those potential small incentives can be for players, that’s that’s a big one. The other thing to think about is that creators can come from many different platforms. Traditionally, people, when you talk about content creators, you’re thinking about a YouTuber or maybe a a Twitch streamer or a live streamer. But creators could also be in-game clan leaders, and getting your in-game clan leaders who’s probably already, you know, if they’re
running a large guild, they’re probably already one of your most valuable players. But getting them an incentive so that they now get the rest of their guild to buy all the new content at the same time, you know, in a really focused way, that can drive real value. Or there’s people that make guide content and make small Discord servers, or they run Facebook groups. And those are content creators as well. So often we recommend thinking them instead of like a creator program, it’s an ambassador program. But we’ve seen some of those individuals
one drive an incredible amount of value for the game, but also then turn into those traditional content creators. Because maybe today they’re just running a small Discord server, but if they have a way to make a living by getting their community excited and buying content, then they’re gonna start making a lot more of their own stuff on YouTube and Twitch, make get a bigger Discord server, all that sort stuff.
David (32:19)
It’s really good point because creators are more than just a talking head on a video site. there’s all these other mediums that people might be influencing, and you’re saying that those types of individuals also make good members of your creator program?
Justin (32:33)
Yeah, I think I think the one like especially for mobile, there’s so many games that have their in game community system, whether it’s guilds or clans or teams or whatever they’re called, alliances, whatever it might be. The people that are driven to run those are going to be your most important players that you really need to retain. And the best way to retain them is give them an incentive for continuing to play the game. And they’re going to do an incredible job of converting
their community, their team, their alliance, whatever it’s called, to purchase all the content. Especially if you give that leader some incentive for doing so.
David (33:10)
Yeah, I think that’s a really important thing to consider because I agree. Like every time I talk to someone about a creator program, they’re instantly thinking a video creator, but not thinking about these other types of influential individuals within their orbit. it also kind of brings up the idea of disclosure. you know, as you sign up partners onto your creator program, I’m assuming you need to verify at some level or
have policies that require them to disclose they’re getting paid.
Justin (33:40)
Yeah, of course, absolutely. With one, we authenticate well, at least Nexus, we authenticate the creator. So as you sign up, you’re actually
integrating and linking your YouTube, your Twitch, your X, your Discord, whatever it might be, so that if you sign up as Mr. Beast but you’re not actually linking Mr. Beast YouTube, which only he could do, then we’re like, okay, you’re probably you’re not that person. We’re not authenticating you. You’re not gonna be able to join this program. But also one of the core parts of a creator program when there’s revenue share, is the creator has to say, when you use my code, it supports me.
it kind of is inherent disclosure as part of the process of saying when you use this code, I get a piece of it and it’s supporting me. One, that is disclosure, but two, that actually is the best method for the creators themselves. a lot of people used to think like the creators are gonna try to hide that and not tell people that it supports them, but their audience wants to support them. And so if the creator says, Hey, this game that you love, that I’m making content for, the reason you watch me, if you buy this thing that we’re both excited about,
It helps me make more content that gets more people to buy it than if they were quiet about it and they were just like, there’s this creator code. Don’t worry about it. They’re always going to perform better when they actually tell their audience that it supports them. And of course, it’s required disclosure as well.
David (34:55)
Yeah, it’s a really good point. And I think, you know, a lot of people’s minds jump to the nefarious actor who tries to hide it and give you like an astroturf review of the game or whatever it is you’re releasing. but your point is, and it I think this is probably another tip that’s like behind what you’re saying there, which is really choose good partners. in addition to having things like disclosure requirements and policies and checks and things like that. I’m guessing like
Who you let in is a big deal as well.
Justin (35:26)
Yeah, I it is one thing mo many publishers initially think that they want to use the creator program to get net new creators, people that play other games to start playing their game. And sure, that’s nice to have. But the you need to make sure that the creators that are in your program are your core community pillars. The people that have been making content for years and years, they’re gonna not just, you know, be very upset if they’re not a part of the program, but they’re actually gonna deliver the best as well. Like those are the folks that drive real value.
And so we’ve seen, especially in our programs, which are performance based, the creators that do well are the ones that actually care about the game, that their audience is actually interested in it. And most of those folks have already been making content for it. And that’s a good thing. Those are the people you really want to be incentive.
David (36:09)
Also sounds it can be a helpful lever, like you said, in terms of emerging new content creators from other community leaders within your ecosystem who might not have like taken that leap yet. And I like the idea of like your entire ecosystem kind of benefiting together financially as a way to keep it strong and growing. It seems like a core benefit of a creator program.
Justin (36:31)
Yeah, one of the ways to think about it is especially for mobile games on YouTube, you might have creators that are organic to your game and they’re making content and they’re gonna get a few thousand views per video. And in a month, that means they might be at most making a couple hundred dollars from ad revenue. And so that’s really not super sustainable for them. They can’t make a living doing that. And so either they’re gonna have to go get a job doing other stuff, or they might start covering other games that can get them more viewership. But
The players that watch those creators are so valuable. We’ve seen across many of our mobile programs, creators that get just a few hundred to a few thousand views per video can drive tens of thousands, if not six figures in revenue through their creator code every month.
David (37:14)
So if I’m optimizing my game, I’m thinking about average order value, average spend per player. And if I’m advertising my creator business, I’m also thinking about a similar metric, which is average revenue per viewer, basically. Or RPM is another advertising metric that kind of falls under that average revenue per viewer umbrella. And so you’re saying a creator program can help me get like multiples more average revenue per viewer?
Justin (37:42)
It will help you as the publisher, but it will undoubtedly help the creator. Yeah.
David (37:45)
Yeah, it’s like
Justin (37:47)
The creator will go from a few hundred dollars a month to thousands, if not tens of thousands, in revenue just by offering them revenue share. And of course, this goes back to then the publisher is immediately like, Well, what if there’s cannibalization on all those players? No, because you’re offering the creator to say, Hey, when you use my code, it supports me, it gets so many more of their audience to come back to the game to start purchasing and to
You know, continue purchasing in deeper amounts.
David (38:14)
So if I’m making more revenue per viewer as a creator, if my financial incentives are aligned with the game, I’m driving net new revenue for the game as well, and I’m doing all that in a way that’s maybe more competitive with other games, then I’m much less likely to go anywhere and much more likely to think of new ways to promote the game.
and the various monetization mechanisms within it moving forward. if I go to that YouTube creator and I offer them $5,000 or something to make a one-time video, they’re going to make it maybe do a good job about it and then move on. But it sounds like the creator program is the kind of the key linchpin to making your game almost too valuable to put down for that creator.
Justin (39:00)
And it gives the creator a predictable and sustainable revenue. So one off sponsorships are really hard to make a living around. But when you know that your income is, you know, because it’s revenue share based, it’s percentage based, that it’s gonna be pretty consistent, then they can start moving from a hobbyist to full time. They can start hiring editors, they can make more and better content, and then obviously they’re gonna continue then not just playing your game and making content, but getting a lot more people really excited about it.
David (39:29)
Okay, that makes total sense. Now we’ve covered a lot of topics here today, and I’m just curious if someone remembered only one thing that you said today about setting up or optimizing a creator program. What would that be?
Justin (39:45)
I feel like I want to give you a stat around web shops because I feel like that’s you know a big focus of the audience. And I think let’s go back to the the moving spend. So the stat that I that I shared was we have a game where we’re they had a creator program both in game and on web shop. And so were able to see really specifically what percent of players in game used a creator code and what percent of players on a web shop used a creator code. And for that game, it was 20% in game.
And 63.5% on the web shop. And so it’s really hard for me to find a better channel to get players to spend on a web shop. Like if you have a web shop, if you have a game, we talked about earlier those axes that determine if you’re potentially gonna have a strong or maybe a weaker creator program. But if if you’re capable of having a strong creator program and you have a web shop, you should work with creators.
David (40:34)
I like it. I like it. It’s such a powerful lever for web shops in particular because of the fee issues, but also it sounds like because of the player engagement side. so that’s a really cool tidbit to end on. So thank you so much, Justin. That was very informative.
Justin (40:50)
Thank you. Appreciate being here.
David (40:52)
Awesome. If you’d like to learn more about what Justin is up to, you can visit Nexus.gg. Thanks everyone for joining us here on Growth Stage. Again, I’ve been your host, David Vogelpohl I love supporting the digital product community as part of my role here at Fast Spring, and I love bringing the best of the community to you here on Growth Stage. Thanks everybody.
